Episode 05: Spoons, Forks, & Lawsuits


Guys I—I don’t know why you’re suing me. I thought we had a good thing going.
But you’re the one—we have a legal contract, what are you talking about?
Samson, show him the legal contract that you signed back in 1999.
In 1999 you signed away a hundred percent of the Monero trust to us.
-That’s true.
-What do you have to say about that?
That’s not true! There’s no way. I deny that.
Look at it, is this not your signature? Is that your hoof?
I can neither confirm nor deny that that is my signature.
– Show us your leg.
– It’s obviously your signature.
No, I refuse, you can’t force me to show you my leg.
My leg is precious to me.
Our lawyers will be in touch with your lawyers and we want to see that ten million—ten trillion Monero in our accounts tomorrow
Fine you get my people to talk to your people
okay, so welcome to the show
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So today on our fifth episode already
I think this the fourth episode, the previous one we can just forget about it
Yeah well talk about that also, so let me start with the introductions first as always
Charlie Lee is with us
and obviously Riccardo who is getting sued now by us
and Samson the one with the contract
So yeah, there was a lot of talk about our previous episodes
A lot of people are not that happy, of course it’s always a minority but they say that our previous episode was not informative enough
We know that it was a bit messy of course, but we actually recovered and I had a lot of fun there
Samson and I didn’t know
No we didn’t at all
The most important thing is that we had fun, you know, not that like we were informative
Yeah, you guys were drunk, and you had fun
Well, we were really not drunk
And we couldn’t hear you half the time, too
So yes I know that that’s why the last episode was maybe not that’s great to look at but it was fun to be in
and honestly, I think like you know there was some advantage to the guests,
I had a lot of people saying that they enjoyed learning a little bit more about lightning
from Dr. Craig Wright herself
[Chuckles]
I think the problem was that the connection was bad so we can barely like hear what you guys talk about sometimes
and it’s hard to have a conversation when two people are in the same room and the other two are remote
Yeah, I agree, it didn’t it didn’t flow as well
Yeah happens with like meetings at work if you’ve ever had like a remote meeting where most of the people are in the room,
and then there’s two people remote, but those two people remote just can’t join the conversation it’s just hard
The solution to this: next time both you guys need to be there with us,
or we just—everyone stays remote,
[Chuckles]
You’re so social, Charlie
or we’re all in the same location, but we just split up into four rooms
Exactly like Sam says, right next door
[Chuckles]
Well we should all be in the same place at consensus in New York, so that should be fun
Well we’re all on earth so, we can make it happen
Okay, so the first topic I really want to talk about that’s something that came up in—at the Roundtable actually
So what are the requirements for banks and for big institutions, in the US for example, to start using Bitcoin
and apparently one of the issues that came up is that if the transactions are mined
They need to be mined by a KYC miner because otherwise you’re basically paying potentially people in sanctioned countries
and it was actually an interesting issue that I never really thought about before
So for example if you have a pool and just some miner can get on there, from like let’s say in North Korea
it mines the transactions from a US bank so the US bank pays a transaction fee
so in theory they’re now paying as a person in a sanctioned country
and that was actually, in my opinion, quite an interesting topic that came up
Now of course, there are issues, there are potential ways to solve this by own
By batching all the transactions together and get them mined by a pool where, you know, that all the miners that are mining there
or maybe have corporations set up their own mining pool or something like that
What if the—I mean, does doesn’t matter where the miners are or where the pool is
Because I think that the back sort of stops where the pool is and then the owner is on the pool to only deal with miners that aren’t in sanction countries
I think this this whole discussion or topic defeats the purpose, I mean you shouldn’t really care where a miner is
You shouldn’t know first of all and when you join a pool you shouldn’t need to KYC yourself
Yeah, I don’t see this as a big problem either
No I know, I mean, obviously that they are—look it depends on your risk aversion
Right, I mean if you’re a US company in you’re genuinely concerned about like following the letter of the law then this might be a concern,
But I mean, there has definitely been—they’ve been statements by the SCC and FinCEN and so on
as to how they view miners, you know, do they view miners as money transmitters,
No they don’t so if they don’t view miners as money transmitters then this becomes less of a problem
Because the interaction seems to be a little bit on the gray side, but, you know, I’m not a lawyer but none of us are lawyers
So I don’t think we’re really in a position where we can give here anyone legal advice
Except to say like, you know, if you’re deeply concerned about this go and speak to whoever, you know, Perkins Coie, Morrison Forester
We’re not your lawyer
Yeah well it was the topic that was brought up by someone who worked at the bank,
So it’s still interesting to think because I really never talked about something like that because basically you’re paying
because you’re paying for a transaction cost, but I think that the most logical solution would then be just have a US pool to mine your transactions
Yeah, remember you’re paying the pool hey, you’re not paying miners, the pool’s paying miners
So like there’s no there’s no way your responsibility extends beyond the pool
If you are a company, you’re a bank
and you’re buying t-shirts to give to your employees,
you don’t have to say to the t-shirt manufacturer where did you get your cotton,
You know, you just buy the t-shirts from a t-shirt manufacturer that isn’t in a sanctioned country
Well you could,—if they really wanted to they could find out, someone could find out from the pool operator
Which miner mined it and if the pool knows that this miner in some sanctioned country was there when they actually put your transaction into a block
Then of course that chain is complete and, you know, who did it right?
But I don’t think it’s a major concern, I mean, if that’s your biggest concern you shouldn’t even be using a Bitcoin
Yeah, you should be using something that like PayPal or Dash
– [Chuckles]
– Yeah
[Chuckles]
You should be using Monero V
[Laughs] Yeah absolutely, you should have sold all your Litecoin at the All-Time-high
[Chuckles]
I actually—talking about Monero V, so is Monero V a scam?
Oh wait, are you asking me? Because I don’t know anything about that
It’s Monero, you know everything about Monero
It’s all the same
[Chuckles]
So here’s the problem right, the problem is post-Bitcoin cash we had a bunch of forks
That would effectively airdrops, right? With Bitcoin Gold, whatever, Bitcoin Diamond and Bitcoin Platinium and Bitcoin Waffle and Super Bitcoin
And you know all of these and, you know, all these idiotic things, but the thing is they weren’t really dangerous because
You could mostly claim your stuff pretty easily it was—you know, fire up the wallets and off you go and broadcast there and then
You know, that you’re able to claim your stuff trivially and of course there were exchanges that would that would do it for you
So you didn’t even need to worry about actually claiming your coins
Now that’s kind of translated over to a couple of other cryptocurrencies
Ethereum I think or Ethereum classic like recently also had an airdrop and so with Monero it becomes a little bit more complicated
Because over the past while they’ve been a bunch of black Ethereum airdrops where ICOs have airdropped tokens to existing Ethereum users
And you can easily get a list of existing Ethereum addresses by, you know, from the fact that the Blockchain is all visible
With Monero you can’t do that so you can’t do an airdrop that is sort of externalized
The only way to do an airdrop in Monero or the current thinking of course, is to just take a copy of the Blockchain
and then anyone who has coins they’d be able to redeem them because of that
and so the saying goes, also the thinking goes, that this perfectly safe because you can move your coins before redeeming them
So that there’s no way for like a bad binary to steal your Monero
The problem with that is not so much that someone can steal your Monero through a bad binary
Although, that’s a risk as well, but the biggest issue is this the fact that keyring use in Monero leads to a duplication in key images
so key images are these special little like public keys that are part of a transaction when you create it
that prevent double spending, because they’re unique to the private keys that you’re—for the inputs, the outputs that you’re spending as inputs
So is it a scam or not?
[Chuckles]
The answer is yes, the answer is yes
If the key images are reused on the fork chain, then it leads to a decrease in privacy on the main chain
Because now somebody can go: “oh that key image over there relates to this that key image over there must relate to this”
So you end up being able to sort of leverage the fork chain and do some analysis on the main chain with every single key image that’s reused
So whether this is—whether Monero V knew about this or predicted this and did this on purpose
Or whether they are just haphazardly bumbling along and don’t know what they’re doing and were just like
“Oh well we’re gonna do this and this going to be a cool airdrop”
I don’t really know, no one knows, you know, I tend to assume—
—The privacy issue you just found is the same problem with Bitcoin airdrops
You could have some cold coins in Bitcoin and suddenly you decide to sell your airdrop on an exchange and now it’s linked to your name
Yeah, well that’s right, so now there’s a decrease in privacy because of what the airdrop is doing
and that’s like—it makes it harmful but, you know, the incentive to ordinary users is:
“Oh I get free money” and so it’s very clever because if done correctly and if no one from the Monero camp had said anything
Then it could lead to quite a quite effective mass breakdown in traceability of Monero transactions on traceability rather
And that’s obviously bad, so, you know, TLDR: we don’t know if it’s purposeful or not,
But it is exceptionally dangerous, and we’re encouraging Monero users not to claim their fork tokens
We do think that there’s a better way, we think that through signing proof of balance and that sort of thing
Which Monero has a lot of that functionality available, that a fork token could still exist or not a fork token, an airdrop token
But obviously these guys are just taking the shortest route because why should they put in any effort?
Yeah, I mean it’s kind of similar to Bitcoin, with Bitcoin cash, Bitcoin Gold where if you’re trying to
If you’re actually sell in all your Bitcoin Cash or Bitcoin Gold, you are kinda effectively de-anonymizing all your all your coins
Right, so a lot of people bought Bitcoin and they plan—they put in like super cold storage and plenty never touch it
or not never but like put in terms like ten years, but if they have to sell their Bitcoin Cash, you have to actually pull that out of cold storage and
There’s risk of losing the keys, there’s also risk of exposing how many coins you have
When you actually send them to the exchange, the exchange will know like “oh yeah 10 Bitcoin Cash, how much you have in Bitcoin”
Yeah and it was actually also brought up—I don’t remember who brought up—but it’s like the perfect way for some government agency to check
Who has how many Bitcoins
It’s a very easy and clever-made, just make it financially viable or financially interesting to have them claim the coins
– Yeah
– So so it’s Litecoin Cash a scam or not?
Um, what’s that again? I’ve never heard of it
– Lcash
– Oh Lcash, oh
– Oh got it
– Wait wait, did we make them?
– What? Lcash?
– Litecoin Cash
[Chuckles] Oh yeah
The real Litecoin, right?
Is it Charlie’s true vision?
Which Charlie Lee, that’s the question
My true vision is that L, like twist it a little bit
[Laughs]
The problem with Litecoin Cash and Monero V and Bitcoin Cash is just, well one problem with Litecoin Cash
Is that they pre-mined a bunch of coins so they’re—it’s kind of the same thing
You pre-mined coins, and you try to pump it and then I think just using the name Litecoin is scamming right
It’s trying to piggyback off of Litecoin’s success
Similar to Bitcoin Cash is doing, what Monero V is doing
Wouldn’t be the first time that this has happen and won’t be the last
One of the issues I also have with these airdrops or forks or whatever you wanna call it
Is that it just creates like this…The same balance in the new token and as the previous one
So there were never mined, so all the coins that were lost on the main chain or people who don’t want to claim it or not interests in it
it’s still calculated like the total amount of coins so when your check in on CoinMarketCap it shows for Bcash
Around 18 million now even though maybe only, I don’t know the numbers but let’s say that half was ever claimed
Because you have like that two million lost coins or so or something like that
So that just inflates the market cap, and give us like more credibility than it actually has
More stability, that’s not the right word, right?
Well, no, but I’m trying to find the right word, yeah
You know, english is not my first language
I don’t know what I’m talking about
Yeah but the point is we shouldn’t be even looking at CoinMarketCap
It’s the perception though, right? It’s the perception of credibility, it’s not actual credibility
The perception, that’s the right word, see? yeah
Yea but the market cap of a coin is horrible, nobody should be looking at a coin on CoinMarketCap alone
Well it’s one of the most popular websites a lot of people do
– Yeah
– And also, yeah, so a lot of people look at the coin market cap like the market cap of the other coins
But also the price, so you have oh Bitcoin cash because there’s Bitcoin that’s cheaper, maybe I should buy that
You also have that strange way that people look at it like when they log in on CoinBase
And they see “oh Litecoin is cheaper than Bitcoin, maybe I should buy some Litecoin”
And also go to 10,000 to 11,000, obviously it’s not going to do that, no offense Charlie,
Of course it’s gonna do that, what do you mean, of course it’s gonna do that
No but then you wouldn’t have sold at all time high
Like a couple—a few years ago when Bitcoin was $200 and Litecoin was like whatever, $1
We were like “Litecoin is never gonna hit $200 dollars”
Well obviously I’m joking now, but you understand what I’m saying, so people are looking for the cheap coins
That’s why it’s— you saw a lot of pumps from the coins that were like under a dollar cause it’s still cheap now
Doesn’t matter if they have like 10, 400 billion coins, it’s so cheap
So speaking of that, I don’t know how familiar you guys are with the onchainfx.com
Not at all
Okay, I found this website the other day I was like—I was thinking to myself that exact thing
The people are buying coins without thinking about the omission and without thinking about the total number of coins that will exist
and I found this this website onchainfx.com and they’ve got a column they just list quite a few of the popular cryptocurrencies
and they have a column for the implied market cap in the year 2050 and it’s default sorting is by implied market cap
and that is fascinating because a lot of the small coins where people are like oh
It’s Sabudala and so what if it goes to $20,000 is very easy to see that’s impossible because the implied market cap in 2050 would be like
You know, more than like the total M3 money supply in the world
what’s the—so it’s like Zcash is one of the coins that has a huge implied market cap
yeah in fact Zcash on the implied market cap in 2050 goes right up to like number 11 or 12th
on the list so it’s, you know, that it changes a lot of things because you can actually see and visualize like
“at this price and at that price what will happen”
now I want to check the website, but I will do it after the show,
[Laughs]
Another thing that was brought up actually and Charlie you said to put it on the agenda
Is the version for the worst core like in Bitcoin core, so certain people have been calling Bitcoin: Bitcoin core
It’s quite a narrative now, even though Bitcoin core is the implementation and not a coin
They’ve been really trying to push this whole story about Bitcoin core
When you say they you mean the Bcash guys right?
– I’m trying to be diplomatic about
– Oh, sorry, sorry
I called Roger out on that on one of my tweets basically everyone calls it Bitcoin right?
By calling a Bitcoin core you trying to like kind of pull down Bitcoin to the level of Bitcoin cash
and saying like “okay Bitcoin split in two, there’s a core version, there’s a cash version, there are on equal footing”
and that’s not the case, right? I mean Bitcoin is Bitcoin, Bitcoin Cash is an Altcoin
So, but they don’t want to—they want to be on the same level as Bitcoin, and they even want Bitcoin cash to be the real Bitcoin right?
So you have to kind of pull Bitcoin down from being just domain Bitcoin
– So this…
– Yeah the comparison would be now that there’s Litecoin Cash we should Litecoin
Litecoin Core, right?
[Chuckles]
The funny thing is I’ve made a few tweets about Litecoin Core releasing a new version, Litecoin Core v0.15 is released and people were like:
“Why are you talking about Litecoin Core?”
Are we giving Litcoin and not this fork? I’m like…
-People are so confused by this Bitcoin core like propaganda
– Oh yeah
That they think—they don’t realize Litecoin Core is just the name of the effectively the wallet, right? It’s the name of the wallet
But wasn’t it there a period of time where—in fact I still see it now, and then they’ve been trying to push the Bitcoin legacy name
Like oh you know, yeah, the old version of Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash is the new one
– Yeah
– But it was like Bitcoin legacy, there’s Bitcoin Segwit
[Chuckles]
– There’s block stream core, my favorite
– Yeah
– I love blockchain core coin
– Yeah
I have a lot of Blockstream core coins
[Chuckles]
The North Koreans?
[Chuckles]
That’s you right? On RVDC
– I am part of the North Koreans, so
– Did you make that up?
– Yeah it’s Riccardo
They’ve called me that on twitter and on Reddit
They call me a Blockstream show, but I hate Blockstreams, so
– Yeah
– You’re the worst Blockstream show
– I know
– Just for being on this show you’re a blockstream show, really
I guess so, the whole like magical crypto friend is a blockstream paid show campaign
– Why else would we have Samson here? Really
– Exactly
– Speaking of which, Samson, I haven’t received the last two paychecks
– Okay
I haven’t received any of my paychecks, what are you talking about?
They’re in the mail
[Chuckles]
It’s because of the high fees on the Bitcoin, that’s why you haven’t sent them
Yeah, we love all the fees too, so that’s why
Can you please send it in Tether? I only take payments in Tether now
– Yeah
– USD or EURO?
Well Euro obviously
I’m still in Europe, so Euro Tether
I’m sure you heard about it
Poloniex got bought by Circle, so there’s a huge market of big companies moving into the crypto market
And I’m expecting to see a lot more of mergers and acquisitions soon
But this also bring up this interesting thing, that Circle first were stepping away from Bitcoin and now it’s only back
– It’s a very strange move
– Yeah cause they made the wrong move
Didn’t they say that nobody would be using Bitcoin in five years?
– Yeah
– They did
– The CEO did yeah
– Yeah
Cause everyone would be using Monero, obviously
[Laughs]
– Well I’m here to, you know
– Or Litecoin
It’s kind of funny that they had to step back but, you know, they come out and said they were wrong
You know, turns out people are actually using Bitcoin, so we’re back
It just sort of like quietly sidelined that comment and bought Poloniex
Well the thing was, a lot of people were very wrong and they were very public about their opinions
So, we see a lot of silent backtracking these days
But I expect a lot more of these kind of deals ongoing this year
I heard some other rumors, I won’t mention them now
Cause they’re still rumors, but I think that this will be huge thing in 2018
It’s also kinda weird that legit regulated company buys a sort of shady exchange
and all of a sudden like they can like bring this shady exchange into regulated company and all that
And everything else is forgiven
– Did you read the documents? Or insider…
– I did see that
It’s a little bit sick, that everything that happened in Poloniex’s past is now forgiven
If something shady happened, it’s fine, so here you have a squeaky-clean exchange with a lot of users, so go use it
Well the thing is [that] regulation is just another form of shady
– Yes
You know, cause this is one and another
But I also think it’s important to dispel the rumor that the Monero enterprise alliance is buying Binance
That’s a terrible rumor, and it’s not true
It’s actually Binance’s who’s buying Monero Enterprise Alliance
Correct, that’s what’s happening
And it’s Binance with an L instead of an I
[Chuckles]
– That’s it
– 2007
I actually expected—look Coinbase yesterday hired someone new for merger and acquisitions
So that also implies that they are also looking to buy, maybe it’s even an alt-coin exchange, what do you think, Charlie?
I don’t know, I mean, I don’t know which exchange they wanna buy
Why is Charlie—Charlie is like the resident Coinbase expert
– Yeah
– Charlie, will Coinbase be adding Monero? Or Ripple?
– People need to know
– It’s Coinbase finally adding Ripple?
Probably not, well, Coinbase actually realized that—they emphasized that they haven’t decided to add any new coins
So, I believe they’re telling the truth, if they decided they wouldn’t have said they haven’t decided yet
The fact that they said that they haven’t decided yet, I assume that they haven’t
They probably want to wrap up the two lawsuits first, right? For insider trading
Yeah I guess, I don’t see Coinbase adding any new coins anytime soon
But I’ve been previously wrong about Coinbase
Take what I say with a grain of salt
A few years ago, Kraken started to buy all these small exchanges, so maybe it’s time for Coinbase
Coinbase has a lot more money
Which exchange do you think they want to buy?
I mean they could have bought Poloniex, right? What other exchange would they buy?
Bittrex, yeah, that was US-based, that’s the obvious one
I don’t see why they would
– Acquire?
– Maybe, I don’t know why
They would have to vet the team, right?
Yeah, typically it doesn’t much sense for an exchange to buy another exchange
GDAX already has their exchange, it’s really hard to integrate another exchange, it’s more work than…
Yeah, two separate exchanges and it’s not going to really work out well
Having Circle buy Poloniex made lot more sense than Coinbase doing it
Circle is Coinbase and Poloniex is GDAX, it’s like that kind of a…
Yeah, so like before Coinbase created GDAX, they could have bought another exchange
– Yeah
– And worked off of that
– But they decided to create their own
– Yeah
So then it probably makes more sense for someone like 21.com and whatever they’re called right now to buy an exchange
They’re in a better position to do so
Maybe or blockstream
[Chuckles]
Exchanges but on a satellite, using lightning network
– It’s the future
– Decentralized exchanges
– I’ll talk to Adam
– Satellite-less Satellites
– I’ll talk to Adam
– Talk to Adam about it
You should buy Bittrex
– Legitimize Bittrex
– We could finally decentralize exchange
– Right?
– Yeah
So one of the things we’ve been accused of recently is that we’re brainwashing people, so
Cobra tweeted about, I believe last week because our show’s intro, and it’s really brainwashing, trying to brainwash people
We’re just trying to brainwash kids
[Chuckles]
We’re looking for the weak victims
[Laughs]
We’re brainwashing them while they’re young so in like 10 years they’re gonna all be blockstream shows
Oh, they’ll be HODLERS, yeah
I can’t take anything Cobra says these days seriously anymore
Yeah specially after the strange tweet yesterday
Yeah I mean he’s been bashing Bitcoin Cash, calling it Bcash for a lot of time
And then, was it today? This morning? He said in a tweet that he
– Doubling down?
– Buying more Bitcoin Cash because he thinks
It’s gonna be—it’s gonna kill lightning network, it’s a better payment
And like a week ago he tweeted, or he wrote an article about changing proof-of-work to move against Bitme
Yeah, I mean, that’s not as bad I guess, I mean if he really think that Bitcoin is centralized
It’s the nuclear option of fixing that
Well, yeah of course but at the same time, I mean it’s still the biggest producer of the ASICS so
So they also have the [probably] the highest cash reserves so they’d be the easiest ones to adapt to the new proof-of-work
– And probably have the first ASICS
– Yeah
So in a way it might even help them because then now there’s more competition from hellen mining
And whatever the other—I forgot the other new miner or mining producers are
Yeah I think that the chain fork is just crazy talk, like there’s only a handful of people
in the community that actually would really want to change the proof of work, so
It’s never gonna reach consensus, at least today it won’t
Yeah, I think we should all just ignore Cobra, he doesn’t make any sense, I mean
– Yeah
– So just ignore it as his shitty account
And his whole narrative also changed like really fast, like two months
He completely went from AntiBcash to Bcash
It’s like—it didn’t change very— it was like a very planned change, like if you…
I think that—well you got Bitcoin.com, they got Bitcoin twitter account right?
And recently the bitcoin twitter account tweeted something like the five stages of acceptance, right?
Or denial, but it’s almost like they’re following that roadmap for Cobra when they’re tweeting things out
So they could tweet that thing out, do you know what I mean?
Yeah it’s, it all seems a bit too planned
– Yeah it’s too planned
So you think Cobra has been bought or what do you think?
It doesn’t matter— I don’t know if the account is bought or the guy is bought
But it’s compromised, no matter what, no matter how you look at it
Yeah, Doug Polk posted a bunch of screenshots in response to that yesterday and
I mean, as late as November 2017, he was sort of going off on RBTC and Bitcoin Cash and all that
So to have such a switch in such a short space of time with no logical progression is surprising
Normally you know when somebody’s changes their mind about something they sort of come around and they talk about it
And they sort of slowly, like it eats away at the arguments and eventually they sort of like:
“Okay, you know, I’m starting to change my opinion” no one goes from like zero to Euro like that
Well, they try, they tried, so if they did a really crappy job, you know, changing position in these big steps
It’s just fake, you can just tell it’s fake
Yeah you can, it doesn’t read the same, even sort of linguistically it doesn’t match
So talking about Bcash issues
Did you read on the lawsuit on, about Craig Wright? So Craig Wright got sued
Last week, of course, when the show airs, a couple of weeks ago
[Chuckles]
Over the two across, like 1.1 million Bitcoin
10 Billion Dollars
But it was also already proven that the bitcoin addresses that were mentioned in the file link
That they were really not from like an unknown source
Like from Mt. Gox, from other people but, like most of those Euros were known to not be trusted or whatever
Well okay the problem with the lawsuit is based off of Craig Wright’s claims that he owns coins
But it’s been disproved so I think this Wizsec showed like all the addresses he claimed fraudulently
Because he’s a fraud, belonged to other people, like exchanges, are just other people that use Gox
He’s said “okay this has a lot of Bitcoin in it, that’s mine, that’s mine”
It’s obviously not his, it’s proven that those addresses are not his
So when this lawsuit came along and he’s suing him for what he’s got, it doesn’t really work, because he doesn’t have it
So if it does go to court, or he has to do a deposition then he has to basically say you know, “that’s not mine”
So what if this is a way of him trying to demonstrate that he is Satoshi?
So basically what he does is he convinces this guy, either manipulates him into starting a lawsuit or just pays him off to start the lawsuit
Then they settle out of court, and then he’s like “see? I have a lot of Bitcoin and I settled out of court and this is proof of it”
I was thinking about that a lot of people are well, we always like our tinfoil hats on when it comes to this
So that was also one of the things that I actually mentioned, he will try to settle it and then try to claim legitimacy
I don’t think it matters, I think like people already have their mind set, if you—people who doesn’t think he’s Satoshi will never believe he is Satoshi and vice versa
I am kind of really tired of all this Craig Wright drama, it’s really boring right?
Yeah but didn’t you see RBTC today?
– See..
– You know, that Roger Ver was posting
A video to the guy that said—well he claimed he spoke to two Bitcoin experts, to which Craig Wright showed privately that he indeed was Satoshi
That he did have the keys and signed some stuff and all that stuff
I don’t care, I just—show me the proof, I mean, do what I did, just publicize a proof and everyone will shut up
But you’re not a Bitcoin expert, so he doesn’t show you the proof
– That’s right
– He’s a Litecoin expert
No, but of course he’s not gonna do it in public, he wants to sit quietly in his room not being in the public eye
– He said it before
– and quietly drive his Lambo around
Yeah, it’s rented Lambo
[Chuckles]
Anyways, I agree with Charlie, I think it’s really boring, it’s really stupid, it’s really boring, I can’t.
I blocked him on twitter so and I think he’s also blocked me on twitter, so we’re not—our rules do not connect
So I’m happy
It’s a lawsuit based on fraud, and I think it’s a real sue like someone saw he has money, he probably tried to scam someone
and they’re trying to get it back, I mean the lawsuit is probably real, but it’s not gonna go anywhere
because he doesn’t have any coins
yeah, well the lawsuit is real so but yeah if it’s based on fraudulent documents it will be interesting
I guess we’ll hear more about it or nothing any more of this if he settles
I don’t care
So Bill Gates sent an email a couple of days ago
And he was asking about Bitcoin, and he said “Bitcoin is killing people” like just like that
like “Bitcoin is directly killing people”
and then I saw a response saying Windows is also killing people
[Chuckles]
I mean, people use windows to buy drugs or whatever and it’s killing people
– I mean it’s…
– It’s horrible
So his argument was that, you know, it’s that Bitcoin is literally defeating like the government’s ability to do things like
Like protect everyone from terrorists and I appreciate his viewpoint on it,
but like I said in response to him and on Reddit, the same technology that allows a government like the US government
to enforce anti-terrorism and so on, that technology also gets abused in oppressive regimes
to track the citizens of countries, of a particular country, and to prevent them from speaking out against that oppressive regime
So, you know, that like something like Bitcoin can be used in that oppressive regime,
and so you can’t say that a technology like that is net positive or net negative across the world
you might say that in your particular little space you think that it’s bad
but, you know, he painted it painted everyone with the same brush and basically implied that all government is good
and, you know, clearly we know that not all government is good because we’ve seen evidence of that over and over again
and so the same should apply to the technology right? Not all technology is used for good, it’s also used by bad people
and this conversation is so nuanced that to state it in such absolute terms is really like disingenuous of him
yeah, and it keeps surprising me that smart people, okay he’s obviously a smart guy
But smart people keep saying stuff like that and it doesn’t make any sense
I mean if you think about it, we are not a strange, we can think critically, I’m sure he is a critical mind as well,
so why doesn’t he understand it or doesn’t want to understand it
He was probably thinking about Monero if it was Bitcoin
But there’s lots more people, but if smart people don’t have subject matter expertise
It doesn’t matter how smart they are, right? And crypto is not something you can just, you know
Read a couple pages on the internet and understand it, there’s so much nuance, and there’s a lot of scam
and, you know, the rabbit hole goes pretty deep,
I mean I would also think he probably hasn’t spent a lot of time talking about Bitcoin
So if someone just asked him out of blue what he thought about Bitcoin that’s the first thing that pop in his mind
He’s just getting ready to buy an exchange
[Chuckles]
He’s fighting Bitcoin because he wants to buy it at a lower price
No but it—might be actually if you want to buy an exchange and has its exchange run on windows
Then we might have another problem, but
– So Charlie
– Yes Panda
Recently, you’ve been trying to put nano and a lot of Litecoin owners don’t like it
Now you can set the record straight
Set the record straight? What’s so funny?
I just thought— it’s just like— it’s like every episode like you’re getting nailed on something
It’s like “Oh Charlie, oh the last time Charlie you said those things, now we have to discuss it again”
I’ve one made positive—slightly positive tweet about nano where I said
I said: I thought it was interesting, the pros they’re doing proof of work, fighting spam, using fool proof for spam protection
and they’re gonna have a challenge ahead of trying to make it be centralized
So it’s slightly positive, I still see some things that they’re gonna have a challenge to make it be centralized
Because I think they’re gonna have a real challenge to make a decentralized
and then I ended it with a disclaimer because I think that’s the right thing to do
To be transparent that I actually do own some nano, that’s it
Yeah, but, you know, that’s because you’re the founder of Litecoin, you’re not allowed to talk about other coins
– Yeah
– That’s one of the rules
I’m not allowed to talk about other coins
– Yes, I should stay in my lane
– Yes
I don’t talk about other coins that much, I mean, I don’t
yeah, I don’t like—I’m not like John McAfee, right, not yet
– Charlie’s coin of the week
– Coin of the hour
[Chuckles]
Coin of the day
So sometimes when I run across some projects that’s interesting, I talk about it
I’ve said something good about Monero previously, I’ve also said something I was made fun of Monero previously
Like people worry too much about what I do
I have thoughts and I just express it and if you appreciate it, you take it if you don’t appreciate it don’t follow me
It’s actually quite interesting because once you have a certain amount of followers on twitter
and start mentioning coins that then obviously everyone’s going to call you a pumper
Even if you’re just trying to like “oh, that’s an interesting project”
– Yeah
– I completely stopped mentioning all positive coins except for like Monero
I might mention from time to time, because yeah, people know that we’re friends, Riccardo
So and you pay me enough to mention it from time to time
Totally, I pay you to test Monero though
No but I don’t mention any projects anymore just because I know I will get a lot of shit about it
But I don’t care, right? If there’s something interesting I just point it out and if you want to give me shit about it I’ll respond to your shit
and throw it back at you, I mean, people tell me to like shut up don’t tweet, every time I tweet, the price goes down
So what I do, I just block them, so they’ll never see my tweets again
No, actually that works very well for Zuko, every time he tweets something about meet
Zcash crashes again or something about privacy, Zcash crashes again. For him it works out pretty well
and like just today someone wrote and said I’m the worst thing to happen to Litecoin
[Laughs]
Well first of all, Litecoin wouldn’t exist if I didn’t create it, second of all, Litecoin went up 50 times in price last year
I mean, how—what else do you want?
Well if it wasn’t for you, it could have gone up a 100 times
I see that all the time, people say “Litecoin would be at $400 if I didn’t like ‘FUD-it’
– Yeah
– If I didn’t sell all my coins
If I didn’t say anything bad about it
It’s stupid, I try to ignore it, but it’s hard
It’s a stupid argument, I mean like at the end of the day, stuff should work or not work despite the people involved, not because of them
You know, you can’t blame one person for anything really, it’s just, it’s silly
Yeah, the problem is that, there’s money involved, sopeople like invest more than they can afford to lose
so if I say something bad about a coin that caused a price to go down, they feel like I’m hurting their investment
– And they give me crap about it
– So I should probably stop telling people
To take out lines of credit and buy Litecoin and follow Charlie?
[Chuckles]
– Probably
– So let’s take a break from Charlie Lee now
Let’s talk about the CIPA calendar contest
Oh yes, do we have winners?
well, we’re gonna have a winner, I’d like to invite Rustalik, Ross Losky on to choose a winner from the entries that we have so far
so over to Rustalik
Greetings magical crypto friends
I’m delighted to be here with you
I am in the bunker at the institute for pitiful effect research
I was delighted by a number of the submissions of course, but some of them we have spent significant resources to validate
For example, Peter did build his first block train at age 3, this is true
and he does snore when he sleeps
[Laughs]
but I thought the Christian Ruhf tweeted a fascinating fact that we had not previously been aware of
He points out that most people have 23 pairs of chromosomes but Pieter Wuille has 23 base58 encoded RIPEMD160 hash of a SHA-256
hash of 256-bit key of an elliptic curve Digital Signature Algorithm key pairs concatenated with a checksum
This is in fact true from personal hereditary tests
But eventually the winner was clear
TheOneVortex pointed out: “If you say bitcoin 3 times in front of the mirror at night
Pieter Wuille jumps out to audit your last pull request
This is in fact true and I’ve tested it
[Snickering]
That’s very good
I like that
Okay, that’s a good one, that’s a winner
Thank you Magical Crypto friends
It’s wonderful to meet fellow disciples of the legendary Pieter Wuille
Of course, you’re all welcome to visit the bunker here at the research institute, should you wish to view some of the relics that we have of Pieter Wuille himself
I do in fact already have a calendar, although my wife prefers that we keep that at home in the bedroom
Okay, congratulations to all the winners
– Yeah, congratulations
– Well done
– You are funny
– Yes
– Okay, back to the show
– Okay, so at the blocks tech conference in Berlin
Snowden again was shelling Zcash, I think even tweeted that like oh, but Zcash even went up after I mentioned it on twitter,
So he’s basically now pumping cryptocurrencies
and I know that Riccardo is really fond of Snowden since he started talking about zcash
Riccardo why do you think Snowden talks about Zcash, why do you think he like Zcash but not Monero
Because the price went up? No, I mean like, you know what? I’m always disappointed
when people who are prominent end up like basically becoming shells and talking about the price
– Of your competitor
– No no no, you know, honestly about anything
Even if they were talking about Monero and Monero’s prices, it’s just disappointing
It’s like they, you know, that we should be focusing on things like, you know, improving the technology and providing greater access to it
and the minute they start talking about the prices like, we do your interests really lie?
and like my wife has very strong feelings about this, she’s like “well Snowden’s getting paid, and how else is he earning money in Russia? He’s getting paid”
You know, and whether that’s true or not I don’t know but definitely seems suspicious like
That he’d even mentioned the price, you know, it’s not great, it’s like John McAfee, but, you know, in Russian form
Well the thing is I don’t think he really understands the tech either, I mean, he should know that Zcash is not that private
Like most transactions are not shielded so he’s recommending a coin that is inferior in terms of privacy
I mean you could shield transactions you send, it’s just not all shielded, right?
– Yeah, but most aren’t
– Unlike Monero, most aren’t, yeah
– I mean, it’s new technology
– But Snowden, given who he is
Shouldn’t he have done his research on privacy coins and at least know the difference between the two and which one is better?
I mean Zcash is obviously better than Monero, so…
[Chuckles]
It has cash in it, it must be better
– Zuko’s true vision
– Yeah, it follows the white paper
– Yeah
– Let’s do some questions from the people on Twitter
– Yeah
– So there’s so much talk about forks
How do you feel about spoons?
[Laughs]
Are you the big spoon or the little spoon?
– I prefer being the big spoon
– Make sense
Now, there was talk about Monero ASIC’s apparently
Yeah so we’re taking our proof-of-work algorithm, we’re not changing it to like a different one
We’re just changing a couple of things within it and the aim is to, you know, we have hardforks every six months
Because we’re completely centralized, and the idea is that with the hard forks every six months,
We will continuously slightly tweak the proof-of-work algorithm
In unplanned ways and this will hopefully make it just not financially worthwhile to produce ASICS
That’s like the only way to really block ASICS
– Yeah
– Is to change it every one in a while
Yeah and the thing is like we were doing this—so one of the big reasons we’re doing this
because there seems to be mounting evidence that ASICS already exists for Monero
But they are: A) mining surreptitiously B) not available for purchase
and C) when they are available for purchase, it’s going to be like one maybe two large manufacturers,
But one manufacturer in particular that’s going to flood the market and that obviously leads to a minor centralization
That we’re trying to avoid, so it’s—I don’t know if this the right move, no one does, but we’re sort of like—
It’s impossible to tell what we should do, I think that having been around and been heavily involved in Bitcoin mining when ASICS came around
and having bought a ton of stuff from Butterfly Labs,
Or pre-ordered a ton of stuff from Butterfly Labs, some of which got delivered, which was miraculous
I can tell you that whole process—where competitors with almost no money taking pre-orders, failing, other companies are starting up
And eventually leading to like a reasonable deployment of ASICS that is unique to Bitcoin
There is no way that happens now because the handful of manufacturers that do exist have got more money than since
and, you know, they’re able to just pick a an algorithm produce an ASIC and flood that market
and we’ve seen it with stuff like SIA where BitMain, it was able to produce an ASIC and flood the market much faster
than they were able to produce their own, so it’s—we’re at a stage where it’s either like embrace ASICS and let this one manufacturer whoever it is
Control Monero mining forever, or we have to push back as a community and that’s what we decided to do
The important question is: how does this impact your malware in the browsers that mine Monero?
So that’s actually very interesting, I was chatting back on Twitter to Malware Tech blog
and so on and I do think that it’s gonna be interesting to see—well like I mean, firstly assuming that the ASICS
We’re gonna obviously see a drop in hashrates at the end of this month, as ASICS fall off
But we’re also gonna see a drop in hash rate as malware will suddenly be mining a dead chain or not even mining a dead chain
But mining invalid proof-of-work because a lot of malware hits ordinary mining pools
So they’re going to be returning incorrect solutions to the proof-of-work challenge and the mining pool will just block them eventually
So they’re gonna be cut off dead and at some point, the mobile operator is going to go like
“Oh I’m, you know, my stuff isn’t working” and will then deploy a fix, you know, will then deploy an update and how quickly will he do that
Those are things that I’d be interested to see or will we, you know, some of them are sort of installed and aren’t—
They’re installed through a backdoor that subsequently gets patched and now the guy contemplated what happens there
So do you think we’ll see like a Monero Classic?
I really hope not, I mean like, there’s so many options for existing ASICS and botnets,
They can just switch to like electroneum or SumoCoin or Monero V so
Having to like now create another forkcoin seems silly, especially when Monero V was launched a few days ago
– Just go launch that, never mind that
– Yeah
– You know, no problem
– They’re probably just gonna be mining Monero V
And it won’t be the real Monero then
If they can’t update their malware, then it’s probably better to market Monero Classic
The problem is that if they got update and they’re locked into one pool and that pool blocks them
Then it doesn’t make any difference anyway because they won’t be able to mine the classic chain
So question for you: what happens when the ASICS that is allegedly their—searches your mining Monero v
And then Monero V has more hash rate than Monero, more secure than the real Monero
– It’s the real Monero
– Then it becomes thankful for today’s true vision
And it becomes the real Monero
– Cool
– Yeah
and then of course all the developers flock to it because
You know, I mean developers naturally gravitate towards the coin that has the true vision, you know
So let’s replace Riccardo with the leading developer of Monero V
– Yeah, Fluffy V
– We have to
Magical Crypto Friends will have to, yeah kick you out and replace you
Sorry, no hard feelings, man
It’s okay, it’s like you guys are suing me, you’re kicking me out, this has been a great episode guys, thanks
Oh by the way someone does have MoneroClassic.com
– Not surprising
– Yeah, it’s happening guys
Talking about true visions, is anyone going to the conference, the Satoshi true vision conference
– I believe it’s in Japan
– Is it call Satoshi’s true vision?
It’s just Satoshisvision.com, but we shouldn’t advertise for this
That’s in there, our brainwashing cartoon right? Satoshi’s vision?
[Snickers]
It’s Satoshi’s vision conference in Tokyo so, no one’s going, how disappointing
– I wasn’t invited
– I thought that they were gonna offer me a speaking slot, but no one has
Is Ryan Gosling going? That’s the question, right?
You’re so deep into cryptocurrency right now, it’s crazy
Maybe, an interesting question if you guys use the decentralized exchanges
– Who? Me me me yes I have
– Okay
Thank you for that insightful answer
And what’s it like? What’s the process like? Do you use it often or?
So I’ve—my extended experiences have been on Bisq, from when it was still called from it was still called Bitsquare
Also on EtherDelta, so Bisq generally positive experience, it’s a dedicated app, there’s definitively a lack of liquidity
Which is always the challenge, but overall I didn’t find it too difficult to use, you tend to hit like large trades rather than, you know,
Trying to sort of market by over multiple orders and that sort of thing or market itself
It’s very useful for it though, like for like large trades, I sort of treat it as like a decentralized local Bitcoins
More decentralized local Monero or whatever, because that’s—it’s more useful for that, I think than anything else
So it’s useful where you can, actually like decide on a trade beforehand, and then tell both parties:
“Just go to this these decentralized exchange” and execute the trade? Right? if the volume is not there
Yeah, you could do it then in a nice decentralized way but if you did have for example
It’s like okay let’s use a practical example if you had Bitcoin and you wanted to go to Monero or you had Monero and you wanted to go to Bitcoin
and you wanted to do so without using a centralized exchange, it requires KYC and AML then there’s enough liquidity for most purposes on Bisq
and you’ll be able to go there, and, you know, match an order and go from Bitcoin to Monero or Monero to Bitcoin pretty trivially, not that complicated to do so
and pretty safely as well, the fact is that it’s dedicated desktop app actually helps a lot
Because compared like with EtherDelta, they had endless issues, endless security issues, because as somebody who has a web wallets
I can tell you that securing a web application is nearly impossible
So EtherDelta, the experience was reasonable, it wasn’t, you know, the like stepping through the sort of like initial wizard
Where you, where it basically creates an Ethereum private key for you and all that, all of that was easy
But like the constant fear of like, you know, their DNS gets compromised in whatever, like that fear is real
and is extremely difficult because you can have the ideal environment locally in a secure environment locally but if their DNS gets compromised
and gets pointed somewhere else to a poison website, then it doesn’t matter how secure you are
– You’re totally screwed
-Okay, so uh one specifically for Charlie
Ask Charlie why he’s now pumping decks camps after he sold Litecoin at the all-time-high
I’m not, I made one positive tweet about it
Charlie are you selling your Nano at all-time-high? Because you know, the audience wants to know
I told people previously, I am selling it higher than the all-time high
– Oh nice
– Yeah I won’t sell anything lower than the all-time high
and a lot of people like asking for other people on, since we had Elizabeth Stark on now
People are asking for other people on, but we’re not going to do that, maybe we can have someone on the episodes where we’re all together
At consensus potentially, but other than that, nah
Other than that, they’re stuck with us, we’re the people in the intro cartoon, no one else is in the intro cartoon
We can have Dorian Nakamoto
He is in the intro, that’s true
Or we could have a dragon
I mean we did have the real Charlie Lee, we could ask him to come back again
– Yeah
– Nice
We can also replace Riccardo with Riccardo V
Yeah, it’s gonna happen, it’s just the fork of me, it looks like me, it sounds like me but it’s not me
– But it’s purple
– Is it?
Yes, it is
Would you advise new investors to sell any coins to pay off their house loan?
I think they should remortgage their house and buy Litecoin and then follow Charlie
This is not investment advice
So now, in all seriousness, I think that, you know, if you’ve made a reasonable profit by buying and holding or trading or whatever
Like settle your debt then, at least if crypto crashes tomorrow, you’ve settled your debt
– Yeah, of course
– Or go hundred times loan on margin
– Samson sometimes, I worry about you
– Well, but actually it’s interesting
Because like for example, in Belgium you get a tax cut if you have a loan and because of the rate is like the rate from the loans that were going out
last couple of years but that was that low, it’s so interesting to keep a part of the loan for your house in order to get the tax cut
So I guess it also depends on the rate you’re getting and where you’re living
– I mean, it’s impossible for us to give financial advice
– Exactly
and I agree, I mean in south Africa we have something called an access bond where you can basically
Like you can draw money out of your mortgage as long as the mortgage is still open
So what some people have done is with the access bond they’ve left just a little bit open at the end
So that they can always tap into it an emergency, so yeah sure something like that’s fine
but like I think that people that are taking out credit card loans or credit cards and personal loans and,
You know, remortgaging houses and all that, that’s super dangerous and it’s like not advisable
Yeah, probably shouldn’t do it
Yeah just rather buy a little bit with the money that you have and then just hold for whatever, ten years, you’ll make more money than like going incredibly risky
And on that bombshell we will end the show
It’s a good investment advice by Riccardo, thank you guys for watching,
And I hope this one was more informative
And you will hate us less now after this episode and for previous one
And I hope that Samson will finish this one again with like “Oh this episode sucks” or whatever he said
[Chuckles]
That was the worst episode in the world
– Yeah, this episode is great
– Okay, bye guys
– Bye
– Bye
– Buy Litecoin
[Laughs]

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