This week in Bitcoin- 1-10-2020- Stifling AMLD5 EU regulation, A Post-Capitalist Future? Netherlands


Oh Hello everyone this is adam meister the
bitcoinmeister the disrupt meister welcome to this week in Bitcoin today is
January the 10th 2020 strong hands golden age 20 2015 is the next Bitcoin
in motion these guys are in motion baby all right
value your wealth in Bitcoin don’t FOMO on off coins I’m offended by son I’ve
got the conviction got a new show here every frickin day and now an
international panel has been assembled on this great day Brad Mills this year
Simon lately belt it’s here they’re both making their debuts and Geoff Andrew you
guys are familiar with him it’s coming in from now we’re gonna start it off a
little bit differently today because we’ve got two guys and maybe some of you
haven’t you know you’re not familiar with Brad he’s all over frickin Twitter
so we’ll start with Brad Mills what’s what’s your story
hey man thanks for having me on my story I I’m an entrepreneur a serial
entrepreneur I guess that means I I fail a lot at starting businesses and then I
got lucky with Bitcoin so I had some experience in gaming and made some made
some games on Facebook and then kind of new you know virtual currency made sense
to people from running a Facebook game business found out about Bitcoin in 2011
third mining in my basement and you know Bitcoin was crazy bought it’s all back
then too so then I I kind of like just held and then went back to my game
business and then I got GOx and so so that’s why I have the proof of the
January 3 key thing on my name because uh I like to spread that message of
trace mayor’s proof of key proof of what is a group of a proof of our bikinis
proof occasion ease yeah because uh yeah that sucks to lose your Bitcoin when
you’re that early you know so so anyway I got back in I
started investing and held through the craziness started a podcast last year
and you know it did some analysts work for a fund in 2017 and mostly now I’m
just holding investing and playing video games
alright you you’re you said you got lucky there I don’t I don’t agree you
were in early you’ve learned about it now how much percentage wise how much
did you lose the ducks all of it are pretty significant probably 80% all
right but so that 20% that you kept on the positive side you still have that
20% right oh yeah for sure so the 20% was was enough to keep me interested in
in the space so when I had my game company going in 2013-14 but I still had
my Bitcoin you know and I started mining again once I lost it in Docs cuz I was
like I got to get my stack back what that I lost in GOx
so I started mining again and took all took the rest of the money that was in
my company’s bank account invested it a Bitcoin – conviction you held your
Bitcoin and you also use company funds to get more Bitcoin and that’s not luck
that is I love it I don’t jump people say oh that’s good I got lucky
Danijela you had a chance you’re right if it’s conviction it’s all of our last
the holder of last resort that just sells the top yeah and you’ve learned
all that and you learn that let’s lose on us a song you learned a lesson for
docs you never did anything that’s silly again keeping 80% of your Bitcoin buddy
yeah hold 80% your never trust Roger ver that’s the very learn all these dudes
are linked to below okay let’s start now signing let me talk before Simon tells
us who he is I want to say one thing he is in the Netherlands the Netherlands is
a country I have many followers from the dead
Boris it’s been on the show Aaron has been on the show before it’s big over
there a bunch of money punch for a little country okay so what goes on in
the Netherlands is important and we’re going to talk about the regulation
situation over there and Simon actually is the the expert in this new you in
Netherlands regulations thankfully our great big but tell us a little bit about
yourself son okay Adam hi thanks thanks for the
invitation good to be here on the show alright so if you trace my involvement
with the money back to its origin it’s about 20 years ago when David Cham
introduced a cache that happened in the Netherlands and at that point in time I
was working for a central bank as a supervisor so we had the issue what do
we do with this internet money that comes around and it should it be
supervised yes or no so so I was there at the at the birth not really of the
Bitcoin but at the birth of the European regulations that cover electronic cash
and and what what you call stable coins in the US we call Emani
so we developed a specific internet cash regulatory regime which is called an e
money regime and was basically involved in the banking sector in a number of
roles with banks with the central bank as a supervisor and now as an
independent regulatory consultant I help out companies comply with regulation
understand where all this regulation come from so I’m I’m sort of a dinosaur
when everyone said well this this I’m from the age where where when Jim
introduces the money on the internet it was like oh it’s it’s still centralized
yeah but we don’t have the bandwidth and we don’t have the capacity to do with
decentralized so when technology allowed for that Bitcoin popped up as the
missing species that was still there to be developed so to me it was like all
over again we get the same questions new technology new money on the internet and
the question how to regulate and yeah we’ve been pretty busy in worrying about
that in Europe and and today marks the day the 10th of January marks a day
where all countries in Europe should have implemented the antimony law
provisions of the so-called fifth European money anti-money laundering
directive but not everyone succeeded another everyone did a proper job so
that that’s the fun of being in this today and it is just it’s amazing that I
scheduled you for this day it just worked helped perfectly so that you’re
going to talk about that in a few minutes it is amazing I mean you’ve been
around this space for a really long time I mean where’d you get your first
Bitcoin then why okay so so in Greek I hooked up with the young Greek very
early only in the 90s here in Amsterdam and he already had a public key crypto
graphic cache system working with smart contracts literally smart contracts
hashing contracts putting a the key over it and then exchanging coins all that
stuff so so those were the early days and and Ian actually and in 2011 or 12
he popped me a line you said this is Bitcoin stuff going on so I merely went
about it looked at it and said no this is not going to happen anyway it doesn’t
have sufficient power base it will not fly for for many reasons I said but but
I said exactly the same about the euro so don’t Bitcoin I shouldn’t feel
shouldn’t worry I have the same belief that the euro has it hasn’t got a proper
power base as well but it takes some time before we discovered or it’s 40
years in time who knows anyhow I was I was my first bitcoins I think I did a I
did a tour for the company bitonic one of the Bitcoin exchanges here in 2013
and they paid me in bit in bitcoins so that’s I guess that’s where I started
all right that is great you’re an early oh and get paid in Bitcoin that must be
a great feeling you’ve got like they’ll pay me a 200 bucks worth the Bitcoin and
now that bitcoin is worth a lot more than they paid you back that so that
that’s always good yeah people remember get paid that’s a lot of people complain
I can’t buy it well earn a dinner absolutely payment alright Jeff you’ve
been on the show many time but so ever with you but not say say what are you up
to and just welcome back yeah great to be here
I run key-keeper IRA comm which is basically a product where you can use
IRA or 401k funds to buy and hold Bitcoin but do it in such a way where
it’s non-custodial and you can actually hold your own keys that’s what really
differentiates us from most other you know Bitcoin IRA type solutions that you
see out there today and he also writes a controversial articles about post
capitalism that we will be discussing now where’s that what’s the link for
that or the name of it the post capitalist
what was it where do I write it’s just on medium yeah if you check out my
Twitter profile there’s a link to my medium which will be dad on the show
notes yeah yeah and it’s linked to below that it’s already down there the post
kappa future a post-capitalist future yeah okay well before we get into a
post-capitalist future let’s talk about the regulatory present here now all old
corny debts they actually bring this up today I’m Dara bit Dutch derivatives
exchange to move to friendly Panama AM lt5 European Christopher rates for
higher cost of AML tv5 which is supposed to take effect today so we’re gonna
start off on this this is and a lot of Americans are saying why do I got to
hear about this European regulation it is important it could set the stage in
America it’s it’s something that isn’t good for crypto companies and I believe
bars brought this up on a picture that’s right assignment tell us what the MLD
problem is and by ended and how the Netherlands is really taking it to the
screen okay well I think in in the US environment you’re pretty much aware of
the sort of the F ATF rules that are being hit on exchanges with the trevor
rule and all that stuff so that’s that sort of the international
dimension where we’re all governments together say we’re gonna make sure that
all creative players are being properly regulated supervised or licenses license
that’s that’s where it starts so everyone has to do this in their own
country already in the United States you said for the crypto players well well
you are going for it for the ico stuff like is it the security yes or no but
for the currencies you’re saying this is money transfer business so get regulated
or get your bid license so you’ve you’ve organized your licensing stuff properly
in the US now what happened in well sort of that’s a anyhow so what happens in
the European side of it and you’re in Europe we said well this isn’t currency
this is money transfer it’s nothing so the currencies themselves haven’t
been regulated as securities or payment instruments in Europe but they needed to
be regulated for anti-money laundering purposes so the MLB five is our sort of
European FA TF rule saying anyone who holds custodial wallets or exchanges
cash for for crypto needs a license or that is that’s where they started and
when working on the directive they said no no it’s not requiring a license it’s
just a registration because everything else would be too much of a burden so
the European rule onto money laundering is get your registration get your auntie
money-laundering rules in place and that’s it have fun and go on with your
business that’s sort of the idea in Europe and now what turns out each
member states then has one and a half year to implement the rule in local law
and that’s where local governments and politicians take over at local central
banks take over and say yeah yeah yeah well we don’t care what the European
directive says we just go notch we up at the knotch so the Dutch central bank
said no no no we don’t like this registration we really want supervision
our local council of state says are sort of our Supreme Court says that’s not
that’s not doable it’s forbidden you shouldn’t do it but the politician said
we don’t care we just move on so you get this license regime instead of a
registration regime meaning that your costs are way more than with the
registration and that means that you’re you’re killing off the smaller players
in the market leaving the market open for big big US companies big tech
companies anyone who has the funds can can basically grab up the European
market and and the the supervisors in in Europe
kill off the the local European initiatives and that’s really shame
because because at the moment we’re in a phase where the European Commission is
asking everyone in Europe how should we do supervision for crypto they they
haven’t answered that question yet but by preemptively
going further than this in this anti money laundering area there’s there’s
yeah there’s only big big companies left in the future so that that’s sort of a
very brief summary and feel free to how much is this costing these are small
companies how much is the regulation costing companies do you think okay so
in if you would take a very simple version if you would only do money
laundering procedures and stuff that that comes with that your compliance
cost that you would have to make internally it would be about 1k per year
and there would be out-of-pocket costs to the supervisor which is 25 to 50 K
euro so so in the simple version you’d have 150 thousand euros to pay of which
fifty thousand out-of-pocket but in the extended version with a licensing regime
there is going to be this repetitive license payment of 50k per year and the
rules are stricter so your compliance costs are going to be another 100,000
per year so you can sort of you’re around 200 or 300 thousand euros a year
of which 50 or 75 out-of-pocket and the other end the rest is cost for
compliance and stuff and that’s because you have to well do do all the extra
stuff for the licensing rules well what a hassle
now what countries do it the best you said if France is doing a good job with
this actually yeah her friends was doing a quite a nice job because of French
they basically said well here’s here’s the here’s the corridor for a
registration if you want to registration go to the left but if you voluntarily
want to go for a license because that gives you a better standing in the
market feel free go to the right and then pick up your license pay for it and
so companies can choose so the French literally implement the directive
properly because each company can then just say well ago for the registration
don’t no need to go for the license and in the Netherlands there’s no choice to
just go for a registration I mean they called it they labeled it a registration
but it’s like like labeling an elephant for a crocodile and then and then saying
you know no it says it says crocodile it’s still a crocodile I mean it’s it’s
putting a label on it that doesn’t that that’s not true so yeah where do you see
this ending with the Netherlands or here it’ll be a lot of companies leaving just
like this one company just a lot yeah so a couple of companies are now saying
well they’re a bit is saying well given our market focus we can also transfer a
business to a different location and continue working because they are
located in the Netherlands and one of the criteria to to need a license is
that you’re located in the Netherlands even if you don’t have Dutch customers
if you are in the Netherlands you’re gonna be hit by the regulation so they
said well we’ll just move our shop a couple of smaller players are closing
down and considering moving so we have already four or five players in the
Netherlands having outlined that that they’re moving and some more will follow
but the regulatory debate in the Netherlands is not not at this final
moment yet we still have the Senate in place and if we’re lucky the Senate will
will ask the fundamental questions is this lawful and they can ask on a
specific provision they can ask our Council of State please review this once
more and tell us whether this is lawful yes and no yes or no and the hope of the
industry is that that the politicians will ask the question is it lawful they
will all separate advice from the Council of State and I’m completely
certain that the council state will throw the whole law in the shredder
because they already said that this was forbidden what’s happening right now so
that’s our that’s the only way out and otherwise we just need to live with the
live with the new rules well your kradic nightmare here well hopefully it does
get shredded up and it goes it seems like a I mean is it the work it’s just
the worst regulation of all the EU countries do you think and while Germany
is even doing is outpacing the Netherlands in Germany day they went
even one step further and they said well actually bitcoin is like a security so
they they base you say you need to be a financial cover
it has a financial license as a broker or an investment or securities broker to
be able to to be in there so so the Germans are even giving their their
industry more more hard time now a bad way everybody his article and
information about this it is all linked to below now other panel guests that
want you to get a chance to speak here give any questions for Simon any
comments on this situation I guess the only question I sorry you go first no
man you go like I’m still reading I’m still like on Twitter okay I was gonna
say does this apply only to companies located in the Netherlands or is it
apply to every company that serves customers in the Netherlands so in other
words Derb it’s moving to Panama are they going to be able to serve
Netherlands customers no they’re they’re not able to serve that’s custom now they
weren’t doing this right now so so gotcha
so but what the thing is if you’re a US company and you have a foothold in
Europe and the registration you need to acquire registrations but if you don’t
have a foothold in Europe as a company under the Dutch law you cannot serve
Dutch customers if you’re US only company with no food in Europe then
you’re just forbidden to to have – customers well just create a situation
where it makes sense for I guess these companies to try and locate and whatever
EU jurisdiction has the lowest level of regulation because then they’d still be
able to serve Dutch customers yeah there’s there so there’s the thing
that you that you would have to do is you would not have to focus on Dutch
customers so you set up shop in in Belgium for example but you don’t focus
on large customers that means that Dutch people come digitally to Belgium and
you’re not inviting Dutch people so you cannot advertise on the market you
cannot put in a yeah that’s Dutch so you really must say I’m its European play
anyone is welcome it’s not focused on any market specifically for the whole of
Europe and then anyone who comes at you can be served from this one country that
that’s sort of the trick that you have to do okay but that means there
happy some smart Dutch citizens that would get the wink wink and no to deal
with him no to deal with that company they couldn’t be targeted but they could
still deal with that company okay now you mention Germany I’ve got I got a
German question for you there they’re the strictest but at the same time we
heard that and maybe this is the that banks there will be able to sell Bitcoin
and I thought that was a positive III thought but unless like yeah the reason
that is is because they were the ones are gonna be able to afford this these
licenses and I deal with all the regulation I guess well well the reason
is if you qualify Bitcoin as a security then you can this you can’t put the
coca-cola share apart from the Bitcoin because they’re both considered shares
so if you qualify the Bitcoin as a share and banks are allowed to deal in shares
for the customers then they are allowed to deal in Bitcoin for the customers
that’s because they chose the highest qualification for the Bitcoin and put it
in the bail in the bracket of this is equity this is shares so anyone who can
deal with shares basically every bank can also issue them or send them to the
customers so that’s that’s why the positive thing in terms of banks step
into Bitcoin is basically a bad thing because it means everyone else needs to
step up to the bank level of supervision and supervisory rules to join the game
in Germany okay all right well we will keep an eye on all this any Brad any
comments about this before we move on well to me like this seems like a huge
problem it seems like I don’t know how bad I actually thought that the market
was going to kind of react negatively to this when when it came into effect
because from the way I understood it like bottle pay was was the lightning
that were tipping bought on on Twitter that that a lot of bitcoiners started to
cheerlead and adopt and use and bottle pay got a lot of growth but then they
announced a couple of weeks ago that they were shutting down but
cuz of this AML 5d or whatever the heck it is because it even applies some
non-custodial wallets yeah then I saw I started looking into it back then and
and I remember seeing samurai wallets strategy which you know Sammy Wray
wallet is the one of the main fungible cheerleaders for for Bitcoin like
fungibility privacy mixing all that they said their plan was to not be in any EU
Member State when when they tell them to go beep themselves see I didn’t I didn’t
swear yeah but they did and then they said we will
not and cannot comply with AML 5 D so I that was back in March when they that
when this discussion was going on about all the different ways to avoid kyc
while using Bitcoin or how to apply our Bitcoin you know by getting mining it
getting it from friends like working getting paid in it whatever and then the
discussion came around to this is crazy restrictive laws and in the UK or in the
EU so how do these companies plan on dealing with this to not comply if they
don’t want to comply what’s how do we resist this
that’s my yeah well I think if you if you’re in in the current European or
Dutch environment that’s like sort of an announcement by the supervisor we
dislike Bitcoin we don’t we don’t feel you can do this properly in securely and
as a result if as a Bitcoin company you want a bank account you’re being
scrutinized by the bank so everyone in the Bitcoin community and the in the
industry basically already has has those antimony laundering rules in place
because if they don’t they wouldn’t even get their bank account so so there’s one
layer of regulation that the Dutch community doesn’t care about which is
effectively those those money laundering rules they have them in place already
and they just get a registration and go home doing what they’re doing but the
the terrible thing here is that they get an extra layer of regulation on top of
it which wasn’t which wasn’t in the regulation in the first place so this
this base layer is doable it’s already in place for a lot of
companies and and this extra layer is the one that
kills us so that’s that’s really the are you talking the base layer one is just
the general kyc yeah yeah yeah you need to get this
next one this next layer is this really restrictive anti crypto anti privacy
it’s sort of put on your suit and your tie and behave like a banker rules those
kind of rules so you’re saying it’s Dutch but it’s for all of the European
Union countries right yeah so the base layer should be in place for all in the
European countries but then you see for example the the English the British they
say well this also applies to crypto for crypto to crypto transactions but that’s
not in the EU directive so you see each country taking a different shot at at
increasing the scope and the the the the impact of the legislation in their own
way as I see fit and that that creates a myriad of of local flavours local ice
creams amo b5 we’re only a few ice creams are the original ice cream and
the rest is a lot of toppings that shouldn’t be in there anyway I wonder
though for European bitcoiners or even like crypto users whatever if you’re not
even using Bitcoin for anybody that uses any kind of crystal currency in the in
the EU isn’t this extreme like don’t we find this as insanely restrictive for it
to apply to non-custodial wallets doesn’t that mean like any any wallet on
the app store that doesn’t hold people’s funds has to comply with these rules but
by you know getting K oh I see and all that otherwise they face fines and stuff
okay the the non-custodial are noncustodial providers are out of scope
in the EU legislation but some local countries may be different the British
I’m not sure if they say that noncustodial wallets are forbidden but
they say the Fiat I mean yeah it’s a definition stuff it’s
it’s let’s say the British have their own way like the brexit and all the
stuff they they they they – they chose a very specific topping on top of this aim
of the year 5 stuff and it is indeed I mean undoable strange
doesn’t make sense but you’ve got to understand that the F ATF is basically
their decision last June with the travel rule was to divide the Bitcoin community
into sort of the the legislative part and the non- part if you compare it to
the early days of music on the internet everyone was sort of streaming doing –
are doing Napster and now you have Spotify in place and the regular
customer wants to be in the Spotify area and not in the Napster illegals illegal
space and that’s what the FFF is driving at with the travel rule and such they’re
just separate out this peer-to-peer a noncustodial area until it’s really you
can really enable it fully as criminals and then the rest of the world which is
fully regulated is the proper proper Bitcoin world that’s that sort of their
vision behind this this whole thing my vision I think but it’s my
interpretation of their future I want to see like where’s the resistance here
like we’re people standing up and saying this is bullshit we can’t do this this
is like totally antithetical to what bitcoin is is there is there I’ve got a
feeling through my family for the last week so I haven’t been on Twitter very
much for the week but like how are people reacting to this on Twitter with
this rule happening well well Indy if we if we skip the European stuff
but go back to the F 80 F rule the the core idea behind these F ITF rules on
complying with all this this additional requirements there was a lot of pushback
by the industry there was a consultation by the effect yet everyone was sort of
up in arrears except for the US community and the reason being is the
following under US legislation cryptocurrency dealers are already
subject to money transmission rules under money transmission rules they
should have already applied with the travel rule they should have already
sent the names of customers with all the transactions because there are money
transmission agents and those are the rules for money transmissions providers
so the Americans were being nicely being informed by the eff ATF that if they
were going to speak up in this whole discussion and make a lot of
then their local supervisors would go after them and notice that for the last
five years they didn’t live up to the trevor rule right so us voice was silent
because they knew if they were going to say where this is stupid they were gonna
get fined by the local supervisor people who don’t know about that right like eff
ATF yeah is is the Financial Action Task Force it’s not an official body as far
as I understand it it’s just a like a coalition of member states and and stuff
that that make recommendations to comply for for banks and stuff to have anti
money laundering rules is as far as I know there’s no
lecithin that can actually enforce this it’s just suggested that countries all
follow the same rules and then the individual countries then decide whether
they want to or not and you know they’re their regulators work in their own
countries to do it yeah that’s that’s that’s true but in practice basically
America plays two sets the rule book and everyone drives it along these rules so
the as soon as the local so the whole effort EF rules on travel rules for
crypto were initiated by the US because the u.s. found it important and that
means that the u.s. even if the rest of the world won’t do it the US supervisors
will immediately after the eff ATF as established rule will immediately say
it’s also relevant for us and then push it into the industry and effectively
they stole the industry it’s or it was already relevant for as money
transmitted the past five years so shut up or be fined for the non-compliance of
the last five years so oh and that’s why a lot of the exchanges over here started
to remove privacy coins from there yeah exchanges because the travel rule
basically says that the bank or the company has to attach like some sort of
metadata or something about the transaction if they’re sending it to
what another company or withdrawing it personally for effectively for each
transaction they withdraw impersonally if you can establish that it’s the same
then there’s no harm because then it’s not so we’re not a person yeah so then
you don’t need the trap you don’t need to include that stuff when it’s non
withdrawal but they couldn’t they couldn’t actually enforce that on the
privacy coins because they have like Bern and Brie mints and all this stuff
so they just start removing all these privacy coins from the exchanges yeah
yeah yeah but so there’s a separate Bowl game I think Adam has a lot more on the
agenda for today so I want to say that’s why I got signing on the show so that in
North American audience can hear about what’s going on in Europe so people
can’t make a big stink about it because we know that it’s a it’s usually
Americans and Canadians that are gonna loudest screamers on on Twitter about
this kind of thing and you’re absolutely right no one is talking about this right now
I haven’t Amin forests what if it wasn’t for bars I really wouldn’t have a I’ve
heard of it in the first place about this uh let’s not slander Canadian you
said Americans and Canadians are polite people
let’s not yeah that’s a good idea friends bro
friendship is a rough québécois put a big four yeah yeah he could really uh
he’s a bit coin nah he’s a toxic bitcoin max look you know on that topic why
don’t we talk about that yeah that’s a good transition for some reason again
people are uh well there was this Nakamoto thing that came out this week
and my take on the whole Nakamoto it’s it’s some guys that are they are they
really bitcoiners or not can anyone use the Nakamoto name for their own
publication you know I really do I say let them compete I’m not complaining but
again it’s brought up the toxic maximalist meme again because there were
a lot of guys saying no you got you guys aren’t allowed to use the Nakamoto name
because you’re not Bitcoin there’s you’re not real big corners I mean there
were some definitely some I mean Vitalik deuteron is one of the guys
behind this so Brad you had a take on that actually
well yeah I wanted to like find out who was behind it because the the you know
when they use the term we are gonna be pro Bitcoin and then brackets BTC that
instantly smells like Roger ver to me like he’s trying to do a Trojan horse or
something build up a bunch of cloak with a new a new thing and then eventually
switch it to be anti Bitcoin when he’s actually talking about bitcoin cash or
something else that he starts if that fails so I was like trying to find out
like who’s behind this because if at all ik booter and it’s an admin in the in
the telegram room where they’re banning all these bitcoiners when they join that
doesn’t seem like a pro Bitcoin thing but also I look at it from the point of
view of that their business and yeah they don’t want to deal with all this
drama right away like who cares it’s people get censored on reddit so you
know get censored on telegram like whatever it’s just the market but it
turns out that I’m pretty sure it’s Balaji that runs it the guy that started
earned calm and then went to went to coinbase and then so there’s someone I
heard that it was him I kind of had a little bit of a relief there because I
kind of look at it as like levels of of a problem and like level one would be if
Roger was you know running it that would be a problem that would be a real
problem level 2 would be some shit coiner that
runs it that maybe has an ulterior motive to promote his coin or something
like that but he’s also respects Bitcoin and pro in his pro Bitcoin but maybe
just isn’t about a toxic mack Maximus himself level 3 is just like a total
scam so I think it’s level 2 because Balaji definitely has been pro Bitcoin
in the past he left coinbase around the same time that they hired the
those hackers that that were doing surveillance on political people and you
know when that whole controversy blew up Balaji left so I kind of took that as a
little bit of a sign of yeah you got his paycheck but he also has a bit of morals
and he left and he tweets pretty much pro Bitcoin he tweets about all coins
but I I feel like he’s genuinely pro Bitcoin so I feel like whatever we think
about them using the Nakamoto name and having like batalik Buddha in and like
bread Garlin house and stuff like that total shit coiners like contributing
that sucks but at least it’s not Roger birth alright that’s that’s that’s your take
on it do you think the the Bitcoin maximalist who have been up in arms had
they’ve been too toxic about this but that’s been thrown around too as a
counter-argument I guess I have an opinion on that I can see mine but if
someone else wants to jump in first I don’t wanna hog the chat here alright
Jeff you can get you want to say something about this this and yeah I
think it’s I don’t want to spend too much time on a please it’s a wait let
them run their own business I say yeah I I don’t know the Nakamoto name but again
it was something that happened this week so Jeff any thoughts on it yeah I mean I
just don’t think it’s any kind of a scheme because if they were trying if
there was any sort of cloak and dagger or anything here they wouldn’t have had
the names attached to it that they did from the beginning right so I don’t
think there was really the problem is I don’t there was very much forethought or
put into it and I don’t think the people that put it together we’re very
self-aware I think it’s mostly still a simple lack of self-awareness problem
that they thought they could put this new cryptocurrency related publication
out there try to sort of latch on to the whole
Bitcoin thing well sort of playing both sides right so I think honestly that’s
my only take on it is just that it but the thing is more defined by lack of
self-awareness from the founders than anything else and choice of the Nakamoto
name is a really good example of that like I don’t think they were I just
don’t think they really understood why that would be so controversial for a
multi coining publication and again I just think that goes to simple lack of
self-awareness dude that depend that like button that’s a good son that’s a
good summation a lack of self-awareness that sums up some of those dudes huh but
hey that’s true let me jump on back on there right quick so I we saw this
happen with with what bitcoin did you know when when
Peter wasn’t Bitcoin maximalist enough the Bitcoin the toxic maximalist
bitcoiners just when went nuts and kind of like started attacking him and
started making a big problem about him saying like having the word bitcoin in
the show name and told him that he was a scammer and all this stuff because he’s
influencing people and he’s influencing them towards shit coins instead of
Bitcoin and it I think it the way that played out it actually affected him and
he reasoned that they were right and that he started to focus on Bitcoin and
he now is a toxic Bitcoin maximalist himself and I think maybe that’s what
the the Bitcoin immune system does that’s what all these maximalists do
they they find a you know a foreign object in the in the bloodstream and
then they start to coagulate around it and try to expel it from the from the
Bitcoin ecosystem and that’s just what they’re doing with this because it seems
it’s like it’s like an attack on on the host you know like the these multi coin
shit coin guys coming in some of them that are openly anti Bitcoin really
coming in and saying like oh yeah we’re probic so I mean it’s it sucks but again
like this is a free market this is open-source technology you know we
someone else should have taken that name very yeah anyone could have bought it
and I mean it was probably spensive but that the immune system analogy very good
one there like it like to hear it and all right Simon I don’t know if you’ve
got to take on all this on all this gossip and stuff you have any any any no
no my only take is then that we had earlier this all this stuff about who’s
nakamoto and I keep wondering about the movie being Wolfgang Amadeus we had this
movie like being inside the head of Wolfgang Amadeus you didn’t want or
Being John Malkovich said sir that’s the that was a movie I keep I keep thinking
about that anyone using the name Nakamoto is basically throwing himself
into a jungle and just don’t do it all right hey there Simon there’s a
question for you and I personally so I got I got to read this course people are
free to do their questions someone actually sent this to me over Twitter
ask him if he thinks there will be a division between Bitcoin users that hold
their coins in the regular regulated custodial wallets and the big corners
that hold their own coins creating a gray group of Bitcoin users yes well if
if we were all going to do all this research stuff you would really end up
like in the Eastern Europe countries like you have the official exchange rate
and the unofficial exchange rate and there’s a risk that if you succeed in in
separating out the two and if regulators succeed in forbidding transactions so at
present the personal layer if I personally do some cash to crypto
transactions and it’s small it doesn’t really hit a large volume then I’m free
to do so I’m not being qualified as a crypto exchange I don’t need a license
so there’s always a layer where money money and Bitcoin can flow it’s the
personal layer but as soon as they start really building rolls and stepping in
the next phase of regulation you may well end up with sort of too short to
bitcoins with to exchange rates it would be really this top equation but it it’s
not unthinkable I don’t see it happening right now I hope it won’t happen but
it’s a very good question and and in some of the nightmares that would be the
case I really hope we don’t get there I really hope you don’t get there it’s
nightmare scenarios oh I don’t like spring doom people I like spreading
positivity so guys retweet this show so here people
hear about this situation so it doesn’t come so it doesn’t come with this well
since we’re talking about the future here I want to get Jeff wrote a
controversial essay oh it was it the the post capitalist future is that the name
of it yeah yeah yeah I actually wrote it I wrote it about a month ago
believe it or not initially but it picked up some more controvert it you
know made a little splash back then and then it’s sort of all restore
it up again this week as I sat down what was released this week I did a two and a
half hour interview with Marty bent about the original essay so you can
check out the essay it’s linked in the show notes here and basically I just
sort of make the point that you know capitalism as I see it is more of a
transitory period of development than an economic system that’s designed to last
over a very long term and I sort of make the case for that and what the natural
consequences of that might be going forward in the future as that system
sort of winds down and mes a if you check it out you’ll see that I was
heavily influenced by a book by a layer block written in the early 20th century
called the servile state because Moloch’s theorized that you know when
the capitalist system eventually began to wind down wind down it would start to
resemble a more servile relationship where you’d have very few holders of
actual capital that would be the only employers and producers in society and
we’d all just essentially be obligated to work for them and he outlined a
variety of different ideas of his book about how that fate could be avoided you
know unfortunately again this book was written over 100 years ago a lot of the
ideas he came up with are gonna look somewhat dated if you were to go back
and read the book so I tried to come up with some more you know modern spins on
that general idea so the essay is it’s not short it’s about a 20-minute read
uh-huh so it’s you know it’ll take a while to really sit and digest and and
work with it if you’re inclined to do so but I enjoyed writing it and I got a lot
of really good feedback both on the original essay a month ago and on the
you know long-form interview about it that dropped earlier this week did you
print did you propose like what happens at the end after post capitalism yeah I
mean so black goes to a comes from a an economic tradition referred to as
distributism right so the idea behind distributism is you respect the idea of
private property but you use positive law to ensure that the property doesn’t
centralize so that’s really the servile state if that’s if that’s where things
end up is based around the idea that eventually all the capitals
centralizes in a small enough group of holders that they’re able to form an
oligopoly and collude against everyone else right which is not that far flung
of an idea so block house so we’re in right now right exactly so block had a
lot of ideas regarding how that could have been avoided in early twentieth
century England you know I proposed a few of my ideas at the end of the essay
one of which some of them were obvious and I didn’t try to ever tried not to
propose anything too radical because I take I tend to look at these things as
as incrementalist meaning you try to interfere as little as possible do the
least radical solutions first and then sort of move from there so a lot of it
has to do with trying to move you know control and decision-making to the mode
to the most decentralized level possible and some examples I gave there one very
obvious one would be more vigorous enforcement of the antitrust law that we
already have on the books both in the United States and in Europe I’m less
familiar with European antitrust law but in the United States we sort of just
stopped and forcing it in the 90s I mean the laws are still there just takes the
political will to actually enforce them and then for companies that you know are
by their nature very large we’re already very large I sort of made a proposal
that is along the lines of what Germany currently calls co-determination
so the proposal that I put in there is that once a company were to get over a
certain size and obviously it’s an arbitrary distinction people can argue
what what that dividing line would be but you could define it by revenue or
whether that when that company eventually became publicly traded or
however you wanted to do it at that point a certain number of board seats
would be reserved for the company’s employees and that would have a couple
potential effects I mean number one it’s going to favor the smaller competitors
that don’t have to comply with that requirement over the word Bernie Sanders
talk about something like that recently correct I mean it’s it’s not it’s not
this is not a a wild idea that I pulled out of the sky like I said Germany
already does it so it’s not this is these are sort of almost milquetoast
solutions but I tried to make more of a case as to why
I believe that you know unfortunately if we don’t start to do look at things like
this that the alternative is going to be much worse and when I said that when the
party alternative would be the alternative is the sir is basically you
know and I outlined this in the essay and block does a better job outlining
this to me is the servile state we’re due to it and this is actually I think
even worse than it was in blocks day because economies of scale as
industrialization has progressed over the 20th century economies of scale have
gotten larger and larger and larger and the benefit to being a large producer
over a small producer has gotten more and more and more and more progressively
extreme so also radically tilted the balance of power between labour and
capital drastically toward capital labor is almost just like replaceable cogs at
this point it’s almost useless so and I think that’s only gonna get more and
more and more drastic as time goes on so if you want to if you don’t want to end
up in a situation where we only have a very very small number of producers and
employers to which the rest of us are essentially subject at that point having
a government is almost irrelevant right because the people that are gonna be in
control are gonna be that small number of producers who also control all the
employment that solutions like the ones that I mentioned or maybe totally
different from the ones that I mentioned our prop R there’s something that I
think people should be thinking about and looking at I guess that’s the best
way to put it in terms of where I think Vic you know I did tie it both in the
essay and a little more explicitly in the interview with Marty
it’s a Bitcoin in terms of the fact that I think bitcoin is a decentralizing
factor so it is one thing that cuts in that direction because one thing Bitcoin
prevents you know you’re all adopt lists from doing is controlling the money
supply right do I think Bitcoin is enough in and of itself I don’t know the
answer to that I think probably not but I’m an all-of-the-above type I so in
other words I think bitcoins a great solution
I work in Bitcoin I spend a lot of time talking about it programming you know
it’s my primary business the whole nine yards but that doesn’t mean that I’m
also opposed to other solutions that I think would also cut in that
decentralizing direction all right
when I one thing from from the essay that I recall reading you did mention
that the Fiat system exploding going down the tubes that that playing a role
in in all of this right so blocks sort of thought the idea was that without you
know block was a little bit of a pessimist and that he thought this was
going to be really really difficult to stave off right and I’m a little bit I’m
a little bit more optimistic in a society where something like Bitcoin is
available in that the certain makes the servile state a little bit less stable
because the servile state basically depends on the fact that you have to
have a mechanism in place to expand the money supply just to sort of create
enough benefits for otherwise powerless people such that they remain consumers
this is kind of a complicated topic the essay goes into it a little bit further
so by if you remove the ability to expand the fiat money supply and you
restrain the government’s ability to sort of provide those benefits which are
again they’re actually not designed to help people they’re basically designed
to just ensure people are getting they have just enough to get by survive and
consume for the producers if you constrain the government’s ability to do
that it does make the servile state type system more unstable everybody this has
obviously intrigued some people it is linked to below you can read the entire
thing give it a critique it’s it’s it’s something different and I’m glad I’m
glad to have a Jeff on the show too to talk about it and no I don’t I mean
I’ve got a real positive outlook on things so but this is a day you decide
on your own people you read it yourself and it is it is thought-provoking to say
the least now honda like button pop that was
freaking awesome pound he’s he’s better at this than you are yeah then you got
take over this show dude and again he’s if you if you want to take over this
show or people want to take a risk oh listen to his podcast it’s uh it’s
linked to below they’re all linked to below their their
Twitter accounts let’s talk about something that was big in the news
I don’t like specifically to talk about the Fiat price because I value my wealth
and Bitcoin but of course but there are people that are saying that now some
some investors when there’s an international risk out there when a big
Black Swan suddenly happens and then disappears that they they go into
Bitcoin that it is it is a short-term safe haven asset after what we saw this
week with the Iran and Trump and that that whole situation there was a lot of
price fluctuation that’s seem to be centered around those events so do you
guys on the panel see how Bitcoin as a safe haven which is just a coincidence
what happened though this week I’ll start with Simon what do you say I think
one of the approaches you can take is just saying well
bitcoin is a completely uncorrelated asset so it’s good to have it in your
portfolio and if that’s your point then the next step is how available is it to
the masses and the normalization that occurs with the regulation with the
antimony laundering regulations means that the masses get more access easy
access to Bitcoin and may also decide to add Bitcoin to their portfolio as an
uncorrelated asset so one of the tendencies that might happen is that if
the Bitcoin availability opens up to a broader range of people given that even
banks may start doing Bitcoin stuff as part of regular investment portfolios
I’m not sure if if the uncorrelated will disappear but I’m certainly convinced
that it has a has a role in an investor’s portfolio and a relevant role
in investors portfolio and whether you actually can click the safe-haven role
in specific events to the to the rate I’m not certain but but I’m pretty
certain that this retail availability of Bitcoin may increase due to the fact
that for the photo let’s say the white the white part of the Bitcoin market
there might be a bigger retail reach but but that’s my take just my show that it
Brad haven’t you you’re in Canada we have this go over there oh well there’s
an extra Aspen okay yeah say in Canada they’re dealing with the unfortunate it
kept the situation still going on because that horrible plane crash versus
a tragedy but what’s your take on a safe haven Bitcoin well I think that I don’t
I don’t get why that narrative has been going around I saw a couple charts I
just put one in your YouTube chat Masari put out a chart yeah I saw I looked at
the comparison between oil gold and Bitcoin during the whole Iran scenario
and yeah they move very correlated like traditionally bitcoin is an uncorrelated
asset but lately it’s been pretty much correlated during certain events like
things will move up and down in in sequence but Bitcoin doesn’t move up and
down exactly the same you know by the same news and stuff like that but but
some news does move things around the same so there’s debate whether or not
like that the collapse of the kind of the stock market would actually collapse
the price of Bitcoin or what it would it you know a lot of us are kind of like
Doomsday Preppers a little bit you know we have a bit of tendency for like
having like a hook for an apocalypse or something like that to happen so our
Bitcoin can go up but you know that would probably be bad for the price of
Bitcoin so any any time any time that like Fiat suffers it’s going to put
pressure financially on the people that own fiat now last couple of years
especially a lot of folks like say pomp and like Tirta Meester and people are
like trying to spread this asset class to institutional investors right there’s
a lot of work and ground work being done a lot of institutional investors and
like high net-worth individuals are coming in
and getting a small portfolio exposure to Bitcoin as a non-correlated assets
someone that comes in puts 1 to 5 percent of their billion dollars into
their into Bitcoin and they’re holding Bitcoin and then they’re all their over
leveraged and real estate in the stock market and all that and then say there’s
a big economic collapse and we go into a depression or something like that and
the price of their other securities and stuff go down well this is going to put
financial pressure on them on all this big money that came in and they may want
to sell their Bitcoin to dollars to deal with their debts and and their financial
obligations and stuff so all of us like anarchist libertarian og sort of like
people who aren’t these high net worth investors that got into Bitcoin early
like we’re in it for different reasons and we’re we can hold through these
massive drops and I don’t I’m trying to like understand what the new holders are
gonna be doing how they’re gonna be reacting when because when we go to the
Bitcoin originally it was a hedge against fiat money but the new people
that are buying Bitcoin and you know they’re they’re they believe in fiat
money a lot of them some of them closeted don’t believe in it and they’re
just looking for like hedges with gold and Bitcoin and real estate and stuff
like that but yeah so I don’t it’s kind of complicated I like to think about it
but I don’t have an answer you bring up a very good point that a lot of the new
people that are getting into Bitcoin yeah and this is hey this is the free
market anyone can get in they believe in fiat money that’s why they’re getting
into in fact statistics that I brought up on I think I have it linked to below
like now more than 20% of all Bitcoin out there is being held by custodians
people are getting ready they want their Bitcoin to be held by
traditional financial organizations that give them interest on their Bitcoin this
whole dphi thing that’s coming on it’s it’s it’s tempting people to not control
their own private Keys anymore but we’re getting more and more people
who are used to that who are used to bags who are used to Fiat so I think
that was another subject matter that I was going to bring up but you kind of
actually let it into that that more and more people and maybe this will be the
trend in the 2020s we’re screaming the top of our lungs
control your own private key truthful keys but we got more and more people
that want two percent interest on their bitcoins so they give it to some company
out there that they naturally don’t think in those terms and all their
coming into the space because number go up right they saw they saw someone got
rich with Bitcoin they see news articles when the bull market starts all these
media things start going out and it attracts people because they’re they get
greedy and they come in and they’re just not properly like they didn’t go down
the rabbit hole of what is money and learn how central banking is a big scam
and like how it’s probably gonna blow up one day they just saw article saying wow
someone got rich with Bitcoin I want some and they just go get a coin base
account that gets a Bitcoin so they’re like I think they were called
second-class Bitcoin since or whatever whatever they’re called they’re not
first-class citizens as Satoshi would say they’re not holding their own keys
they’re not even they don’t even care about that so it’s like maybe it’s our
job to educate them more on why they should have Bitcoin not just to get rich
but like there’s another way I think you just said that race merit Satoshi
Nakamoto anyway Jeff you were about to say something there’s another factor
here too I mean if there’s a real economic downturn what you got to
remember is a lot a lot of people that have Bitcoin are gonna have to sell it
because they got to pay their mortgage they got to buy diapers they got you
know and I mean I got all these responsibilities and obligations that
are going to just have to come before Bitcoin it’s not even a matter of
wanting to sell or worried about the price increase or decrease you know if a
large a lot of if you want to call a lot of people that got in where they got me
and early or not there are a lot of young people that are big believers in
Bitcoin that have a huge you know percentage of their let’s say net worth
in Bitcoin you know if 80 percent of your net worth
in Bitcoin you lose your job for a year you’re going to
to sell some of it right to just pay for those basic necessities so I think
that’s another factor that’s got to be considered here as well but then also
contrary they’re like if you’ve got 80% of your net worth and Bitcoin and then
the stock market collapses you’re not gonna give a shit because most of your
wealth is in bitcoins so you’re not gonna add to sell pressure for like
stocks going down so there’s kind of like game theory on both sides of this
but I feel like the economic weight of the people that are coming into Bitcoin
in the last couple of years would add more sell pressure if the stock market
collapsed because they have a lot of their net worth in the traditional
system right and you got to you got to remember right I mean that’s a good
point too because also actually a pretty common way a lot of those people would
be set up is they own a bunch of Bitcoin and then the other big part of their net
worth is their 401k right and if there’s an economic downturn and they’ve got to
sell one or the other their 401k at work it’s got economic it’s got tax
consequences if they want to you know sell their stocks and bonds and withdraw
from their 401k early so they’re probably gonna sell their Bitcoin first
because it’s gonna have will be capital gain on that sale a Bitcoin maybe
depending on when they bought in or not but that’s gonna be a much lower tax
consequence than paying a bunch of penalty from you know withdrawing early
from their retirement kind of work all right we’ve got an interesting one thing
on there like we can actually measure this though this is a way this is not
like just tea leaves we can actually look at the dormancy of coins and see
how you know I think it’s called the Hodel waves I forget who came up with
the the chart but there’s the the chart that shows the day’s destroyed
accumulation over time and the percentage of coins that are dormant and
it’s been relatively stable as far as I remember looking at it recently holding
ten million Bitcoin did not move in 2019 in 2019 there were ten million bitcoins
that did not move that that was that was something we should have what we just
talked about it’s a so it’s a very good and that’s a that’s
that’s lined up for the having now we’ve we’re here at the end of the show here
definitely but I want to I guess a closing question for everyone or just
there everyone’s take on the buzz I don’t know if you guys the way the
rotation goes I don’t know the next time you guys will be on the show it might
not be till after they have him at the prison we got lots of guests to rotate
in the best guests in the freaking space on this show by the way town that like
button I bring you new people all the time this
you guys have been awesome but having let’s just here uh everybody’s take on
the having they can say anything they want to say about the having because it
is it is the event of the year and it is coming up in in May so uh Simon what’s
your take on the habit in a year’s time will be at ten thousand dollars per
Bitcoin I’ll just give you this I’ll give you a list as the net effects will
will hop up and down and in one year will be at ten thousand dollars per
Bitcoin so that’s a measurable criteria and then I’m very curious where we get
it no I mean I’m I mean I you read all the always fun stuff about I noticed the
atom back statement that his ripples who sells of ripples buy bitcoins I mean
anything can can happen with the with you with with the rights um so I’ll just
give you the the rate for one for in one year time and let’s discuss it then Jeff
your take on having my probably unsatisfactory take is I’m obviously
long term bullish ships for Bitcoin I don’t pay very much attention to
short-term price fluctuations I definitely think that stock to flow as a
concept is a very explanatory concept as its explained in safety dean’s book but
as to any specific quantitative modeling around the stock to flow concept I’m not
saying it’s good bad or indifferent I don’t know enough about it because it’s
just not my name it’s not my main concern it wouldn’t have you know
short-term price fluctuations don’t change the fact don’t change my
decision-making in of deciding to buy and hold Bitcoin for
the long term yes you are a long-term thinker you’re not impulsive that’s what
this whole show is about babies all right Brad you’re you’re any any
thoughts on the having well if you go by what happened over the last few having’s
we could see $100,000 Bitcoin by 2021 I mean it could happen I just I believe
that we’re gonna see $100,000 Bitcoin within three to four years for sure
that’s why you know I’m still in this and okay so much attention to it and
whatnot and I saw a pretty sizable percentage of my portfolio is in Bitcoin
still because I think there’s 100 X I think we’re going to a million dollars
within ten years so like I I don’t know specifically
what’s gonna happen around the having but anecdotally I’ll give you this one I
I just put it in your YouTube chat so I have a friend he’s got a pretty pretty
huge podcast he gets like ex-president stuff on his podcast and so he’s got a
contact with someone that that works with the SEC like they do investigation
or something into banks at the SEC or something
so and you did a podcast episode with this dude last year about like money
laundering tracking money laundering at the banks and stuff so he’s pretty easy
you know he’s a conservative guy very like insider type of guy and my friend
sent me a screenshot of like the text message that this guy sent him following
on Bitcoin he’s like hey did you hear did you hear that the the bitcoins are
gonna go up in price and tedx in the next year go buy some Bitcoin so this
guy that works for the government it’s following on Bitcoin because he’s
hearing about the having so that’s a little bit of like an anecdote it’s
obviously not good you know but but that’s just I I in my tweet I was like
is this it is this really happening like other government employees actually
started the foam on Bitcoin and they’re getting ready for what they think it’s a
big boost that’s a great anecdote because last time around we had a having
hype Oh everyone says everyone knows about the
having they don’t know about the happy they go to look what it does to a
government official when he hears about it he immediately thinks the best
possible outcome that they’re all planning is that gonna necessarily
happen probably not it’s not gonna 10 extra whatever he said but there’s a lot
of people that still got to learn about this and these I think my thing is the
next few months I think a lot of people are going to be surprised about who is
talking about this there’s gonna be a lot of people talking about it
mainstream type of people and there’s gonna be some hype book behind it and
it’s gonna bring some newbies into the space yeah I think like this guy this
guy thought he had special inside knowledge he’s like oh you know the
mining is not gonna work the same it’s not gonna be as many of them the price
is gonna go up you better get something now so if
that’s what someone that smart thinks you know imagine like what you just said
when when the media starts to cover this about like bit the Bitcoin having and
and retail picks up on it we date with this maybe the you know the new the new
bull market for Bitcoin the start of the new gold market but for one thing’s for
sure the retail is not there right now and we’re still waiting for that to come
back and maybe maybe they’re having we’ll do that yeah I agree with that
reality it’s not it’s definitely not there right now which is unfortunate
because some of these people in the future are going to complain you know
why did the bigot the big corporations buy up all the Bitcoin well because you
as an individual we’re not you know the the regular people out there are not
buying it right now but we will see what happening we take it a day at a time
over the long term I think all of us are very very bullish and you just gotta be
patient people some people are completely impatient and impulsive by
the way love that minute that no 2x hat you got hang in there Brad and you can
see that oh yeah that’s that’s great your ring with any that I mean that goes
back to impulsive there about some impulsive companies wanted to take over
Bitcoin and the people said no wherever we’re sticking it and there was never a
2×4 because it would have blown up anyway that’s just a reminder right
there that uh take it slow you don’t need drastic us
Lucian’s what solution there were there was no problem with the scaling at the
time we don’t need to go back to 2017 history but I’m always glad to see a
little bit of history okay well look at this is it we’re gonna get everybody’s
conclusionary remarks Jeff anything you want to add anything what a promo the
floor is yours yeah I think we covered a lot of really
good ground here today nothing too big to promo if you’re you know if you if
you’ve got retirement fund you’re looking to invest into Bitcoin so you
don’t have to pay taxes on your gigantic Bitcoin gains check out key keeper IRA
comm you can also check out the essay that we talked about here during during
the podcast by clicking the link down on the show notes it’ll take you over to
medium and that’s about it I had a good time I really enjoyed it thanks for
having me on you know great to have you on and just when I heard you say the
word tax I thought about the term short term capital gains people that’s a head
you’ll get familiar with that term if you’re one of those dudes flipping back
and forth your big coin between dionan all that nonsense people may ask me well
why can’t I just do that short term capital gains tax you don’t think that’s
not a necessity in life you don’t have to deal in that realm all right Simon
what’s your what’s your take any any conclusionary thoughts anything you want
to add about about regulation anything okay right well well Jeff I very much
appreciated your your take your article I had a kind of browse through it and to
all of you guys I would like to extend an invitation next up when you’re in
Amsterdam I also do historic tours on the city of Amsterdam and the old man ah
cool so drop drop me notes and I’ll show you around and even if you’re lucky and
they’re still available I’ve made some some I’ve made an ICO of
wooden coins made from a tree that stood in front of the exchange square of
Amsterdam and I’ll keep a number of those coins safe for you so in time when
you come in Amsterdam come pick them up and we’ll have a good time
well I got a wish you a lot of luck too to the Netherlands keep spread the word
there are so many great Dutch people out there that are in this space and we want
them the Netherlands to stay as free as possible for all the crypto companies
Bitcoin companies that are out there but hello to all my Dutch viewers I love you
all out there there are many I mean it’s you can see your any nutria tubercle
check there’s any legitimate youtubers check their statistics and see happy and
Dutch people it’s quite up it’s quite amazing for a small company Oh a small
country well let’s talk Canada real quick here Fred what’s your what are
your conclusions there in thoughts here well it was very fun to be on your show
thanks for inviting me I’ve been listening to your show for years so it’s
good to finally I don’t think we ever met in any conference or anything before
but I feel like I know you because I’ve been watching you so long so pound that
like button for Brad Mills his first appearance on the show and I guess I
would say if anybody is interested in hearing long for conversations with
comedians that’s what my podcast kind of just started to be it’s about me talking
to bitcoiners nope no coiners about Bitcoin comedian friends in Toronto and
around around different places so I tried my show I try to be a little bit
humorous on the show but also think about the big things about where we’re
going and looking at it from a non technical point of view so if anybody
wants to check out my podcast appreciate that it’s called magic internet money
alright everybody Twitter is linked to below thanks a lot dude this was this is
a classic everyone remember we do this show every Friday who knows what time it
will come on but it does come on eventually i am adam meister the
bitcoinmeister the disrupt meister remember to subscribe the channel like
the video share this video new show here every day Saturday night we’ll be back
for beyond big coin shabbat shalom everybody tweeted out
spread the word all these guests will return they rocket see ya
tomorrow everybody see you next week see you whenever you return she watched
let’s see

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